Comments on - Prof. M. Reza Ghadiri: I’m just a cheerleader http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/ The Reza Ghadiri Project Sat, 04 Feb 2012 23:01:07 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Anonymous 47be http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-15904 Anonymous 47be Thu, 02 Feb 2012 03:25:54 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-15904 I hope you do not believe in what you are saying yourself. The issues discussed here are not around Andrei only. Open up your eyes and look at other similar web sites. Andrei was brave enough to create his own and start another stream of discussion using his experience as a starting point. The thing is that there is a problem with modern academia and it has nothing to do with this or that person. I hope you do not believe in what you are saying yourself. The issues discussed here are not around Andrei only. Open up your eyes and look at other similar web sites. Andrei was brave enough to create his own and start another stream of discussion using his experience as a starting point. The thing is that there is a problem with modern academia and it has nothing to do with this or that person.

]]> By: Andrei http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-15886 Andrei Wed, 01 Feb 2012 20:13:28 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-15886 Hahahahaha, this! For the win. Reza, is that you? )) No, no, just kidding. Undergrad, 4th year, correct? Any truthful factual statements and any statements of opinion are <u>not</u> slander (or libel, which is the correct term in the case of published words) by definition. I appreciate that romanticizing aged practices of academia can lead one to be out of touch with the modern world, but nowadays there's this thing called <em>FREEDOM OF SPEECH</em>. Hahahahaha, this! For the win. Reza, is that you? )) No, no, just kidding. Undergrad, 4th year, correct?

Any truthful factual statements and any statements of opinion are not slander (or libel, which is the correct term in the case of published words) by definition. I appreciate that romanticizing aged practices of academia can lead one to be out of touch with the modern world, but nowadays there's this thing called FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

]]> By: Anonymous e534 http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-15884 Anonymous e534 Wed, 01 Feb 2012 19:46:27 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-15884 You seem to be a bitter person who wasted time doing unproductive things. No wonder you did not get a PhD. Maybe, if had not wasted time, done proper literature searches, come up with ideas for your own PhD project, you would have been successful. Most times students blame professors for project failure but if you expect to be called a PhD, then don't let your PI think for you. Of course you forgot to add that if you had worked hard to justify your stipend, which was paid for by the NIH grant, them the grant would not have been wasted as you claim. Maybe your PIs fault was wasting precious public money on a useless student like yourself. I am surprised you have not been sued for such negative comments on the web. Of course it is never the students fault! You can not just slander people on the web! You seem to be a bitter person who wasted time doing unproductive things. No wonder you did not get a PhD. Maybe, if had not wasted time, done proper literature searches, come up with ideas for your own PhD project, you would have been successful. Most times students blame professors for project failure but if you expect to be called a PhD, then don't let your PI think for you. Of course you forgot to add that if you had worked hard to justify your stipend, which was paid for by the NIH grant, them the grant would not have been wasted as you claim. Maybe your PIs fault was wasting precious public money on a useless student like yourself. I am surprised you have not been sued for such negative comments on the web. Of course it is never the students fault! You can not just slander people on the web!

]]> By: diordmehc http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-15390 diordmehc Mon, 23 Jan 2012 05:12:36 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-15390 "Doing science is not something you would normally do if there is nothing better to do." No. Doing science is not something you would normally do if there is nothing better to do. AND you are made explicitly aware of the horrors of it. "Doing science is not something you would normally do if there is nothing better to do."

No. Doing science is not something you would normally do if there is nothing better to do. AND you are made explicitly aware of the horrors of it.

]]> By: diordmehc http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-15389 diordmehc Mon, 23 Jan 2012 05:10:47 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-15389 yeah. i'm wrong. that's why this comic is funny. Actually, it's not funny, it's depressing. http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=313 yeah. i'm wrong. that's why this comic is funny. Actually, it's not funny, it's depressing.

http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=313

]]> By: Anonymous 47be http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-15252 Anonymous 47be Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:34:13 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-15252 I think you are wrong. Very FEW people went into academia because there was nothing better to do. Crooks and cheaters are identified very quickly in the environment. They do not stay long here themselves. If they are in they are happy to leave ASAP. Well before any milestone. The rest of your letter proves it. Doing science is not something you would normally do if there is nothing better to do. I think you are wrong. Very FEW people went into academia because there was nothing better to do. Crooks and cheaters are identified very quickly in the environment. They do not stay long here themselves. If they are in they are happy to leave ASAP. Well before any milestone. The rest of your letter proves it. Doing science is not something you would normally do if there is nothing better to do.

]]> By: diordmehc http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-14632 diordmehc Mon, 09 Jan 2012 07:09:49 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-14632 I think you are wrong. Many people went in to academia because there was nothing better to do. Most grad student applicants have not "proved" they were bright enough to do tie their shoes, much less set up repeated, properly controlled trials on an exploratory procedure that may never work. You're right that no one signs up for the pressure cooker part. Maybe the right solution then is not necessarily to get rid of it. Seriously, science is not a psychologically sound process, at all. You fail. And fail, and fail, and fail, and somehow you have to have your head straight enough and push through all of that negative psychological reinforcement, and either 1) fake your results (obviously not preferred) or 2) triage what you have and discover the minimal publishable unit or 3) come up with the answer. This is antithetical to the way that our brains are wired. Luckily, many scientists have their heads all wired wrong, to be neutral, or maybe get some sort of masochistic pleasure out of it (the ones who get sadistic pleasure also may be predisposed to become PIs). All other scientists are either golden children, ass-kissers (or both), incredibly lucky, fake things from the get-go, or drop out. The "pressure cooker" to some degree is inherent to this a-psychological process of science. As more and more of the low-hanging fruit are picked, it only becomes more difficult, and to make matters worse, we're throwing more and more money at the problems (think LHC, NIH), creating perverse incentives to hire more intellectually and emotionally unqualified people into research positions. The solution is clear. We need to spend LESS money on science, and actually warn grad students about the stupidity of pursuing a career in science. We need to get rid of the cultural capital associated with being a scientist. I am a PhD who is working in a no shit BS biologist position at a research institute. One of my co-workers, is a BS biologist from a small unknown college who is my age and wants to become the next Jay Keasling or Stanley Pruisner. I mean it's not impossible (my PhD advisor came from a small no-name college, was VP at an independent research institute, and now has a drug in phase III trials). But I think it's an uphill battle. And he wants to do it because he thinks it will make him famous. Meanwhile, he laments that he's not banging chicks and he spends hours in the lab putzing around not getting science to work. Who is going to look him straight in the eye and tell him that he's not completely stupid, but he's a dumbass for trying, and by trying he's shitting in the pool and making things worse for everyone? I did. And hell, I could very well be wrong. But you know what, the "coolness factor" of being someone who calls the shots and gets to do "mad science" and enjoy the perks of being a PI (including all the chicks, and "independence", and money that it comes with) is too much of a draw. I think you are wrong. Many people went in to academia because there was nothing better to do. Most grad student applicants have not "proved" they were bright enough to do tie their shoes, much less set up repeated, properly controlled trials on an exploratory procedure that may never work.

You're right that no one signs up for the pressure cooker part. Maybe the right solution then is not necessarily to get rid of it. Seriously, science is not a psychologically sound process, at all. You fail. And fail, and fail, and fail, and somehow you have to have your head straight enough and push through all of that negative psychological reinforcement, and either 1) fake your results (obviously not preferred) or 2) triage what you have and discover the minimal publishable unit or 3) come up with the answer.

This is antithetical to the way that our brains are wired. Luckily, many scientists have their heads all wired wrong, to be neutral, or maybe get some sort of masochistic pleasure out of it (the ones who get sadistic pleasure also may be predisposed to become PIs). All other scientists are either golden children, ass-kissers (or both), incredibly lucky, fake things from the get-go, or drop out.

The "pressure cooker" to some degree is inherent to this a-psychological process of science. As more and more of the low-hanging fruit are picked, it only becomes more difficult, and to make matters worse, we're throwing more and more money at the problems (think LHC, NIH), creating perverse incentives to hire more intellectually and emotionally unqualified people into research positions.

The solution is clear. We need to spend LESS money on science, and actually warn grad students about the stupidity of pursuing a career in science. We need to get rid of the cultural capital associated with being a scientist.

I am a PhD who is working in a no shit BS biologist position at a research institute. One of my co-workers, is a BS biologist from a small unknown college who is my age and wants to become the next Jay Keasling or Stanley Pruisner. I mean it's not impossible (my PhD advisor came from a small no-name college, was VP at an independent research institute, and now has a drug in phase III trials). But I think it's an uphill battle. And he wants to do it because he thinks it will make him famous. Meanwhile, he laments that he's not banging chicks and he spends hours in the lab putzing around not getting science to work.

Who is going to look him straight in the eye and tell him that he's not completely stupid, but he's a dumbass for trying, and by trying he's shitting in the pool and making things worse for everyone? I did. And hell, I could very well be wrong. But you know what, the "coolness factor" of being someone who calls the shots and gets to do "mad science" and enjoy the perks of being a PI (including all the chicks, and "independence", and money that it comes with) is too much of a draw.

]]> By: Tony http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-14429 Tony Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:39:04 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-14429 You are wrong on both accounts. 1. Grad school isn't free. When you account for the earnings you forfeit during your graduate studies, you actually lose money. "Studies have shown" that a lifetime of post-doctoral earnings cannot make up for the forfeited earnings during your studies. The point is that a Ph.D. is a financial sacrifice. It is not a free ride and it comes with a cost. I am not arguing that we should give a Ph.D. candidate $100K/yr. I am just stating a fact - it is a financial loss, not gain. 2. A Ph.D. makes no one rich. By and large, industry is skeptical of Ph.D. holders and hesitates to hire them. I have been personally told by a high-tech executive that the first step of screening prospective candidates is to break out the pile of Ph.D. holders and throw it in the garbage. In industry, a Ph.D. is very close to a liability. I've even heard of Ph.D. holders withholding the fact they completed a Ph.D. just so they could get a job. You are wrong on both accounts.

1. Grad school isn't free. When you account for the earnings you forfeit during your graduate studies, you actually lose money. "Studies have shown" that a lifetime of post-doctoral earnings cannot make up for the forfeited earnings during your studies. The point is that a Ph.D. is a financial sacrifice. It is not a free ride and it comes with a cost. I am not arguing that we should give a Ph.D. candidate $100K/yr. I am just stating a fact - it is a financial loss, not gain.

2. A Ph.D. makes no one rich. By and large, industry is skeptical of Ph.D. holders and hesitates to hire them. I have been personally told by a high-tech executive that the first step of screening prospective candidates is to break out the pile of Ph.D. holders and throw it in the garbage. In industry, a Ph.D. is very close to a liability. I've even heard of Ph.D. holders withholding the fact they completed a Ph.D. just so they could get a job.

]]> By: Tony http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-14427 Tony Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:28:48 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-14427 Grad school can't work just for one side - it has to work for both. That means treating grad students with respect and affording them some common courtesies. Like publishing your work on time. We go to grad school to learn and develop the research skills. Nobody signs up for the "pressure cooker" part. Those who want to be pushed to the edge know where to go. The Marines. Grad school is challenging, and it should remain so. But it should be challenging because of the <i>intellectual</i> toll it takes on you. Emotional strain doesn't make you a better researcher. It <i>interferes</i> with your ability and motivation to become one. You could argue that it's a weeding out process. And then we could talk about whether it's an efficient and fair weeding out process - and what kind of people does it <i>really</i> weed out. So nobody's advocating watering down the intellectual challenge. It's not "grad school is too hard and I can't cut it". Clearly we already proved we're bright enough to get in. If anything, the intellectual challenge brought us <i>in</i> to academia. It didn't push us out. All we're saying is "Cut the crap". Grad school can't work just for one side - it has to work for both. That means treating grad students with respect and affording them some common courtesies. Like publishing your work on time.

We go to grad school to learn and develop the research skills. Nobody signs up for the "pressure cooker" part. Those who want to be pushed to the edge know where to go. The Marines.

Grad school is challenging, and it should remain so. But it should be challenging because of the intellectual toll it takes on you. Emotional strain doesn't make you a better researcher. It interferes with your ability and motivation to become one. You could argue that it's a weeding out process. And then we could talk about whether it's an efficient and fair weeding out process - and what kind of people does it really weed out.

So nobody's advocating watering down the intellectual challenge. It's not "grad school is too hard and I can't cut it". Clearly we already proved we're bright enough to get in. If anything, the intellectual challenge brought us in to academia. It didn't push us out.

All we're saying is "Cut the crap".

]]> By: Andrei http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-14256 Andrei Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:28:49 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-14256 I don't mean this in a negative way :), but how about I sue YOUR ass for <i>libel</i> on calling me a "borderline slanderer", you silly pretentious little prick? You can fuck off with all the patronizing lunacy too. I don't brag, but you don't want to compare successes with me, money or otherwise, now or later. For the sake of your mental stability, keep drinking the kool-aid — and go be retarded someplace else, mkay? Dumbass. I don't mean this in a negative way :), but how about I sue YOUR ass for libel on calling me a "borderline slanderer", you silly pretentious little prick? You can fuck off with all the patronizing lunacy too. I don't brag, but you don't want to compare successes with me, money or otherwise, now or later. For the sake of your mental stability, keep drinking the kool-aid — and go be retarded someplace else, mkay? Dumbass.

]]> By: TrevorT http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-14216 TrevorT Sat, 31 Dec 2011 17:19:29 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-14216 Tony- I hope for Andrei's sake that he has learned to apply himself productively in some other field so that he is able to make a living. The situation he describes in the Ghadiri lab is not uncommon, though Reza's particular brand of mind games does seem ugly. However, as a (successful) alumnus of a similar tyrant, all i can say is that's kinda what we signed up for . . . . grad school is a pressure cooker, but 1) it's free, and 2) then you get out and get a job that pays pretty good money. I applaud Andrei for "taking to the streets" and letting people know about the downside of grad school, on the other hand I think naming people is unnecessary and borders on slander, and it surprises me this page is still up. I don't mean that in a negative way, I just hope you're considering the potential risks of airing your dirty laundry in such a specific way. But, more power to you Andrei, i think you've done a net service here. Tony- I hope for Andrei's sake that he has learned to apply himself productively in some other field so that he is able to make a living. The situation he describes in the Ghadiri lab is not uncommon, though Reza's particular brand of mind games does seem ugly. However, as a (successful) alumnus of a similar tyrant, all i can say is that's kinda what we signed up for . . . . grad school is a pressure cooker, but 1) it's free, and 2) then you get out and get a job that pays pretty good money. I applaud Andrei for "taking to the streets" and letting people know about the downside of grad school, on the other hand I think naming people is unnecessary and borders on slander, and it surprises me this page is still up. I don't mean that in a negative way, I just hope you're considering the potential risks of airing your dirty laundry in such a specific way. But, more power to you Andrei, i think you've done a net service here.

]]> By: Tony http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-13578 Tony Tue, 20 Dec 2011 03:57:00 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-13578 Andrei - Looking at your website, it's clear your strengths weren't only in Academia. This website is impressive on many levels. And I don't mean "HTML"-wise. You managed to attract and retain a loyal viewer base that "speaks your language". You can be very proud of this website. Andrei -

Looking at your website, it's clear your strengths weren't only in Academia. This website is impressive on many levels. And I don't mean "HTML"-wise. You managed to attract and retain a loyal viewer base that "speaks your language".

You can be very proud of this website.

]]> By: Andrei http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-12564 Andrei Fri, 02 Dec 2011 10:34:07 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-12564 Hey man, did you get my email? If not, what's your address now? (Post it here, it won't be shown) Hey man, did you get my email? If not, what's your address now? (Post it here, it won't be shown)

]]> By: JG http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-12550 JG Fri, 02 Dec 2011 02:03:02 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-12550 Sorry Andrei, I missed the earlier post about declining your M.Sc. My mistake. I still hope all is well. Cheers. Sorry Andrei, I missed the earlier post about declining your M.Sc. My mistake. I still hope all is well.

Cheers.

]]> By: JG http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-12547 JG Fri, 02 Dec 2011 01:23:17 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-12547 Hi Andrei, it's the guy who switched to Finn's group. One of my coworkers found your online experiment and told me that you mentioned me in this post. I'm sorry that TSRI didn't fully pan out for you either (did you take the M.Sc. and run, too?). Regardless, I just wanted to touch base and say "hello" to see how you are doing. I haven't read your full site, but do you talk at all about the old TSRI Christmas parties, and that cover band they kept hiring, "Hot Pursuit"? Yikes! I hope all is well and that things are going your way without having to watch the sun set over Torrey Pines Golf Course. Best Regards, JG Hi Andrei, it's the guy who switched to Finn's group. One of my coworkers found your online experiment and told me that you mentioned me in this post. I'm sorry that TSRI didn't fully pan out for you either (did you take the M.Sc. and run, too?). Regardless, I just wanted to touch base and say "hello" to see how you are doing. I haven't read your full site, but do you talk at all about the old TSRI Christmas parties, and that cover band they kept hiring, "Hot Pursuit"? Yikes!

I hope all is well and that things are going your way without having to watch the sun set over Torrey Pines Golf Course.

Best Regards,
JG

]]> By: Cato's Letters http://rezaghadiri.net/reza-ghadiri-cheerleader/#comment-9365 Cato's Letters Fri, 07 Oct 2011 12:56:50 +0000 http://rezaghadiri.net/?p=393#comment-9365 These PI's aren't rigid from the beginning, they suck you in and then once you are there a while and feel stuck they gamble on that and tighten the screws. They know that if they told you their expectations at the beginning then you would leave before you have invested such a high sunk cost. It would be a breach of contract, if there were a contract. There isn't one of course, because the PIs like it that way. Try getting their expectations in writing and I bet you will see them squirm and hem and haw. In my case, I wish my PI had presented higher expectations not because I want him to be more idiosyncratically rigid (I don't, pushing harder on bad advice is not a good thing) but because it turns out to be a lot harder in reality to actually accomplish things. Sugar coating is not being a good PI either, it's being a bad PI especially when you don't even know how to advise someone to succeed. These PI's aren't rigid from the beginning, they suck you in and then once you are there a while and feel stuck they gamble on that and tighten the screws. They know that if they told you their expectations at the beginning then you would leave before you have invested such a high sunk cost. It would be a breach of contract, if there were a contract. There isn't one of course, because the PIs like it that way. Try getting their expectations in writing and I bet you will see them squirm and hem and haw. In my case, I wish my PI had presented higher expectations not because I want him to be more idiosyncratically rigid (I don't, pushing harder on bad advice is not a good thing) but because it turns out to be a lot harder in reality to actually accomplish things. Sugar coating is not being a good PI either, it's being a bad PI especially when you don't even know how to advise someone to succeed.

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